AMERICAN MORNING WITH PAULA ZAHN
Discussion with Palestinian Chief Negotiator
Aired January 28, 2002 - 08:20   ET 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND 
MAY BE UPDATED.
 
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM 
AND MAY BE UPDATED. 
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a terrorist on Friday. We posed 
that question to Israel's Consulate General Alon Pinkus. Today, we're going to get the 
Palestinian side from Saeb Erakat, who is the Palestinian authority's chief negotiator. He 
joins us now from Ramallah in the West Bank. Welcome back, sir. 
 
SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF NEGOTIATOR, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY: Thank you, 
Paula. 
 
ZAHN: Israeli police are now saying it appears as though the attack in Jerusalem on 
Sunday was carried out by a female. If she was on a suicide mission, that would mark the 
first time a woman has ever done this in Israel. Does this represent a change in strategy 
among Palestinians? 
 
ERAKAT: We don't know all the details about this suicide attack. All I know is that 
President Arafat issued a condemnation of this attack, because in the Palestinian authority 
we don't condone the killing of Palestinians and Israelis. But I don't know all the details 
about this attack yet. Even the Israelis have not revealed the information they have on this 
attack. 
 
ZAHN: How troubled would you -- if it is proven that this was, in fact, a female suicide 
bomber? Does that make things different? 
 
ERAKAT: Listen, the fact that there are suicide bombers in Israeli streets, the fact that 
there are Palestinians being buried (ph) every day, the fact that there are Israeli tanks in 
(UNINTELLIGIBLE), that there are Israeli assassinations, is really troubling me. All I 
know is that we need help. Palestinians and Israelis need help in order to resume the 
negotiations. And we are not getting this help. 
 
ZAHN: But, sir, you didn't answer the question. Because there are many who follow the 
faith of Islam and they feel that this is just an outrage that a woman would ever be put in 
this position or would allow for herself to be put in this position. 
 
ERAKAT: Well, as I told you, Paula, we don't know all the details. But whether a man or 
a woman, this is not acceptable to us. And, as I said, President Arafat issued a statement 
condemning the attack. And we need to find a way to resume the negotiations in order to 
end the Israeli occupation, which is the shortest way to revive hopes in the minds of 
Palestinians and Israelis. I'm not going to go about just defying such actions. I'm not 
going to just defy anything. All I can say is that at this moment of desperation -- 
desperation would (ph) be to disparate acts -- once the Palestinian people are prevented to 
have hope, once the Israeli occupation continued (ph) -- the settlement activities continue 
-- the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the humiliation, the destruction of their economy and their 
hope of any future, I believe this is what should be dealt with. And the only way to deal 
with it is to resume a meaningful negotiation between the two sides. 
 
ZAHN: Mr. Erakat, you call for resuming these negotiations, but this call comes at a time 
when the administration makes it quite clear how they feel about Yasser Arafat. Let me 
replay or read to you some of what the vice president had to say on a Sunday talk show 
yesterday. He -- quote, "He promised" -- referring to Yasser Arafat -- "to renounce 
violence, give up terrorism. What has happened is that we have been deeply disappointed 
by his inability or his unwillingness to control the terrorist launching from Palestine to 
Israeli civilians." 
 
Which is it? Is he unwilling to stop this or unable to stop this? 
 
ERAKAT: Well, first of all, the statements we've been hearing from the American 
administration is absolutely unacceptable. And it may be cost free for them, as well as the 
entire (ph) American politics is concerned. But it's not cost free as far as those of us -- 
both Israelis and Palestinians who are trying to revive the peace process and put it back 
on track. I think such statements, such talks, will only add to the complexities we have, 
we'll only add to the cycle of violence and counter violence. And it will not contribute to 
saving Israeli or Palestinian lives. 
 
What we need is the Americans to carry out their responsibilities, because they are 
responsible for the peace process -- to get back to the negotiating table. I saw Vice 
President Cheney's statements. So in accordance to his logic, President Arafat is guilty 
until proven dead. On January 19th, Paula, President Arafat wrote President Bush a letter 
-- a written letter -- inviting the Americans to join us in the investigation of the -- of the 
ship (ph) to shred the truth on it. And we have said we are willing to exert every possible 
effort to know who's behind it, because it's absolutely contradicting the policies of Arafat 
and the Palestinian authority to smuggle arms. 
 
We don't have neons saying "stupid" on our foreheads, to take on Israel with 50 tons of 
(UNINTELLIGIBLE). Nevertheless, the Americans said, "We don't want to investigate 
with you. You are guilty until proven dead." And that's wrong. That's really wrong. What 
we need is for the Americans to resume their active role in bringing the parties back to 
the security (ph) cooperation, to exchange information, to negotiate. And that's the only 
way that can lead in a direction of restoring some sanity, wisdom and hope. 
 
ZAHN: But, Mr. Erakat, in closing, is it your expectation that if these talks ever come to 
pass that the U.S. will not be dealing with Yasser Arafat? The vice president went as far 
as saying yesterday that he didn't believe Yasser Arafat when he said he had nothing to 
do with this arms shipment from Iran.  
 
ERAKAT: Well, then tell us, President Arafat is an elected president by the Palestinian 
people directly. On the one hand, he is irrelevant, he must be destroyed, and the Israelis 
are doing just that by confining him to his headquarters with tanks. The closure and the 
seize, the destruction of our -- all police forces and headquarters. Then ability for our 
forces to move.  
 
And on the other hand, if anything goes wrong, we're accountable. Make up your mind. 
Are we partners or not? President Arafat was elected by the Palestinian people, and it's 
shameless for any other party to say whether he's relevant or irrelevant, because it's the 
Palestinian people who have decided that President Arafat is relevant. And President 
Arafat extended his arms to the Israelis to come back to the negotiation table, because 
this is the only way we know how to save lives. And we need the American 
administration's help.  
 
And I think the talks we've been hearing from the administration will only increase the 
support of those extremists on both sides who want to sabotage everything. 
 
ZAHN: All right. Saeb Erakat, as always, thank you very much for joining us here on 
AMERICAN MORNING. We plan to get back to you as this -- obviously, the story 
develops. Thank you again for your time this morning. 
 
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THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Up front this morning, another deadly round of revenge between Israelis and Palestinians.

Two Israeli women were killed, and dozens of others wounded yesterday when a gunman opened fire on a crowd of Palestinians -- excuse me, pedestrians in Jerusalem. Israeli police shot and killed the gunman.

The attack came on the heels of an Israeli raid on a Hamas explosives lab in the West Bank. Jerrold Kessel joins us this morning from Jerusalem with the very latest on that -- good morning. What is the latest?

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula. Well, to judge from what the U.N. special envoy in the area, Terje Roed Larsen, who I was talking to just a few minutes ago, was putting it, he described it in very, very ominous terms.

He said the situation is like teetering very much on the edge of a precipice, on the edge of the abyss, he said. Now, perhaps there is a degree of undiplomatic hyperbole, exaggeration, in the way Larsen described the situation, but it is rather grim.

And you do see, on the streets of Jerusalem, the Israeli cities today, a sense of heightened alert, heightened security in the wake of the declaration by the militant Islamic group Hamas that its engaged in all-out war situation with Israel.

The attack in Jerusalem, as you mentioned, yesterday, the gunman affiliated to an offshoot of the Fatah movement of Yasser Arafat, firing at random into people at the bus stop, and into stores in the center of West Jerusalem, killing two and wounding more than 30 before he himself was killed, and the Israelis very much alert.

But Israel is not simply sitting back passively on the defensive. It has been engaged in some very aggressive actions of its own. The foremost of which was yesterday the -- what the Israelis called a preemptive strike against a bomb factory of the Hamas in the town of Nablus on the West Bank. Four members of the radical organization were killed there.

The Israelis say they forestalled the making of a number of bombs, and of course, the unrelenting pressure that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is keeping up on Yasser Arafat with the Israeli tanks perched ominously within eyesight, just outside Yasser Arafat's West Bank headquarters in the town of Ramallah.

The talk among the very highest echelons in political and military in Israel is of not just keeping this kind of pressure on Yasser Arafat, but of possibly going further, and of even trying to push him into permanent exile and undercutting his Palestinian Authority.

But the Palestinian leader is not really sitting quietly by. He's rather defiant, even though he is very much in isolation. He has been talking defiantly of the -- referring back to the time when Israeli tanks surrounded in Lebanon, in Beirut, 20 years ago, saying he outlasted that very much, and look where I am now, he says, and he's been very, very defiant, almost saying as if Ariel Sharon has overplayed his hand, that of Palestinian perspective.

But, a very volatile standoff with one word common on the lips of people on both sides, and that one word is, "escalation."

ZAHN: All right, Jerrold Kessel. Thank you very much for that update.

That, of course, leads to the big question this hour: Is Yasser Arafat a terrorist? That is how former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak describes the Palestinian leader, and Barak says he must now be treated like a terrorist. Arafat, meanwhile, says he is willing to die a martyr.

Joining me now, Israeli counsel general, Ambassador Alon Pinkas -- welcome back.

ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI COUNSEL GENERAL: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: You just heard the characterization of an official that just spoke with Jerrold Kessel saying that you're on the edge of abyss.

PINKAS: Right.

ZAHN: Is he right?

PINKAS: He's right, but we've been there before, and we were smart enough and common sense -- governed our actions to step back. But Arafat --

ZAHN: Is there any common sense governing anything right now? I mean, you've got the Israelis saying that they are going to do something in retaliation for these attacks yesterday on these pedestrians. At the same time, you have this Hamas leader declaring outright war on Israel.

PINKAS: You're absolutely right. It just shows that Arafat may be willing to die like a martyr, but he is certainly not willing to live like a statesman, like a realistic and reasonable person. He reminds of the former prime minister of Mauritius (ph), I think, who said, "we're on the brink of the abyss, but we're determined to step forward," and that's exactly the way he has been behaving the last several months.

ZAHN: But what do you want from him right now? I mean, we just heard Jerrold Kessel's report. People describe him as being basically in a state of house arrest, stuck in the West Bank. Do you want him -- to force him into exile, as some of the Palestinians suggest?

PINKAS: No. We don't want to force him into exile. We're not into forcing him into exile or building his authority. This is absolutely, unequivocally up to him. He still has the opportunity, if he puts his mind to it -- I'm sorry -- to quell down on terrorists, to dismantle the infrastructure, to do something.

However, all the indications that we have in the last several days, and yesterday's attack is an expression of it, is that he is planning or is sitting quietly idle when a comprehensive terror campaign is being launched, and you mentioned the Hamas, which declared an all-out war against Israel. We have very, very low expectations from him at this point.

ZAHN: Low expectations. What was your response to his comment -- I'm going to put it up on the screen -- where he talked about defending a Palestinian state, and perhaps down as a martyr.

He said, "I swear to God, I will see the Palestinian state, whether as a martyr or alive. Please God, give me the honor of becoming in the fight for Jerusalem."

You just characterized him as planning. Will he become a martyr in some, you know, big grand finale?

PINKAS: Good for him. I mean, the tragedy that he's bringing on the Palestinian people is second to none, in the 20th and 21st century in terms of a supposed leader leading his people. I don't know what it is that he wants. We do know something very simple, he can -- he could have had a Palestinian state at Camp David. He did nothing to show up to those negotiations.

There were several rounds of negotiations -- I know, I hate going back to that again and again and again, and supposedly we have to look forward. Fine. But we can't look forward without asking him, where the hell where you at Camp David? Where were you in last 15 months? What have you done for your people? And he wants to with a martyr, he wants to die gracefully for the Palestinian cause. Fine.

ZAHN: Ehud Barak's rhetoric has really heated up. He, of course, was a peace partner with Yasser Arafat at Camp David. Let's roll for the audience a little bit of what he has had to say, most recently, about Yasser Arafat. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EHUD BARAK, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: We found that this man, he looks like a terrorist thug, he walks like a terrorist thug, he quips (ph) like a terrorist thug, so he's a terrorist thug. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Were those appropriate remarks...

PINKAS: Yes.

ZAHN: ... from Mr. Barak at a time when you say you don't want to force Arafat into exile. You think he is the man with the answers.

PINKAS: He was the man with the answers. And the question was put forth by Clinton and Ehud Barak, the former prime minister of Israel at Camp David. Arafat never responded. Never came up with a counterproposal.

Is he a terrorist thug? Yes. He is a terrorist thug. What can we do? Look, we knew that he is a terrorist, Paula, when we engaged in this peace negotiating process in 1993. We knew that he -- about his background, we knew about his inclinations, we knew about his dysfunctional political leadership when we got into Camp David in July of 2000, but we thought that he had left terrorism behind.

We thought that he seriously bid farewell to arms. We found out that you can take Arafat out of terrorism, you cannot, apparently, take terrorism out of Arafat.

ZAHN: Final question for you, because you just referred to him in sort of the past tense. Is there a general acceptance among the Israeli leadership that there's going to be someone else that you are going to be negotiating with down the road?

PINKAS: Politically, yes.

ZAHN: How soon?

PINKAS: I don't know.

ZAHN: And who will it be?

PINKAS: That's up to the Palestinian people.

ZAHN: Who would it be?

PINKAS: I have no idea. I can tell you, there's no Thomas Jefferson next in line to replace him. However, that doesn't mean that there's aren't more reasonable, realistic people out there. We're talking about him exhausting his political usefulness. He's just outlived it. What can you do?

ZAHN: We're going to have to leave it there this morning. Ambassador Alon Pinkas. Good of you to join us. Appreciate your time.

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